Soo - it's not always easy to navigate, and long threads are a bit of a pain.

Anyway - Whitesheep, just a few more comments for you.

Your new job could be very nice indeed. Of course I scarcely need to tell you to check any paperwork to make sure you don't become liable for any losses. I don't know if Canadian Company Law is similar to ours (UK), but I would be looking for shares in a LIMITED LIABILITY company. That is, if it goes bust you cannot be asked for any more than the face value of the shares; which, of course, you will already have paid in order to get the shares in the first place. Anyway, get any contracts which you don't understand after a couple of careful readings to be looked over by an accountant or lawyer or such like.

As far as the other manager and the 'social' drink is concerned. Do not be over worried. It would be a great break for you if this place is simply friendly, with staff having the occasional social contact. If she does call you to invite you out, I suggest you take the initiative and suggest somewhere you know for a drink. ("Oh yes - that would be nice. Do you know xxxxx? It's a really good atmosphere/band/whatever. Let's go there" Try to select a place where you can sit 'facing' across a table, not side by side, (that keeps a little distance, socially as well as physically) and certainly no low lights etc. (LOL). By taking the initiative you are, in effect, saying 'I can call the shots when I want to'. Then, if she does make a 'pass', simply say that you are happy with her company, but think it unwise to get involved with workmates too soon. Just say something like '"Well, let's see how it goes at work for a while eh? I wouldn't want to spoil a good working relationship by getting involved with anyone too early".

Incidentally, I was invited to the opening of a new location of the prospective employer today. I can't tell you how good it felt to be warmly greeted by Tony the owner. He said the nicest things to me and made me feel wanted and appreciated. He said since we both seem to want me to work there, all we need to do is "agree on a number" and that he'd email me an offer in a day or two. He felt we should be able to have our agreement in place by Monday but if its anything complex I will have a lawyer take a look. I'd like an equity provision and will wait to see his offer before assuming too much.

Perhaps that's one of the damaging aspects of childhood scapegoating. We are trained to be 'good', not 'friends', and that makes us prime targets when people feel insecure and start looking for someone to blame.

Hope you read also my post about having a drink with a the manager who interviewed you.

In any case, I won't be working directly with this other manager unless she's training me. I'll wait until I'm hired before calling her and I'll make it clear that I'm only interested in a work friendship.

And if you or anyone from this group is ever in Toronto I'd be hurt if you didn't let me know. It is a great city but darned cold at the moment. Regardless, there are few better tour guides than yours truly especially if you like to eat. In my experience Toronto has the best and most diverse examples of authentic international cuisine anywhere.

Maybe what you're saying could apply to adults but by adulthood time a pattern has already been set in place. To break that pattern you ALONE (as the one now responsible for everything bad that's happened in siblings and parents life) have to set boundaries that the adult children of the family are not used to. They now cry NOT FAIR! Their comfort level has already been established in childhood and they like it that way.

I was a friend to my sister and brothers and I was good some of the time too, but PARENTS blaming you for everything makes the family out of wack for the one being blamed(scapegoat) - and just fine and balanced for the ones blaming(scapegoaters). That means their identity(all they know theirselves to be) is wrapped up in this way of looking at a problem. It's always the scapegoats fault and the concept ALWAYS is black/white thinking and a distortion of reality.

"What did this scapegoat child ever do to cause this chaos for theirself?"

The whole point is that we did NOTHING to earn the role of scapegoat. However, we alone are responsible for what we do with our lives now that we see this fallacy. THEY were wrong to blame us. Their actions were unloving but not because we were unlovable.

This is where I am today: learning who I am in order to love myself. I still think I was an awesome brother to my siblings and I can see now that they sucked. I was a good son too until I couldn't continue living the lie my parents had told me. When I finally stood up for myself and announced my unhappiness in my marriage I was attacked. Their misbehaviour doesn't negate my worth as a sibling or son. Rather I should use that as evidence of my worth.

At the same time, like you, I wasn't perfect. But perfect is boring and isn't something I strive for any longer. All I can do is my best and if thats not good enough for anyone else... too bad for them.

My trepidation with relationships revolves around my chronically bad choices instead of my inability to attract people. I see now that I attract the wrong ones because I didn't feel good about myself. Or as Scott Peck says 'if you want to be loved you've got to make yourself lovable otherwise you'll be grasping and dependant'.

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whitesheep (09 Feb, 2007 09:21 p.m.):
Hey Dee Ann,

"What did this scapegoat child ever do to cause this chaos for theirself?"

The whole point is that we did NOTHING to earn the role of scapegoat. However, we alone are responsible for what we do with our lives now that we see this fallacy. THEY were wrong to blame us. Their actions were unloving but not because we were unlovable.

At the same time, like you, I wasn't perfect. But perfect is boring and isn't something I strive for any longer. All I can do is my best and if thats not good enough for anyone else... too bad for them.

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Absolutely, I agree with this absolutely and utterly!! Oh - I mean I wasn't perfect either - After all I was bad enough to like Blues and other - um - worthless music. Seriously thouh, no-one is perfect. Perfect is not only boring, but intimidating and unloveable.

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whitesheep (09 Feb, 2007 09:21 p.m.):
My trepidation with relationships revolves around my chronically bad choices instead of my inability to attract people. I see now that I attract the wrong ones because I didn't feel good about myself. Or as Scott Peck says 'if you want to be loved you've got to make yourself lovable otherwise you'll be grasping and dependant'.

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Mmmm - I think Scott Peck is a tad off the mark here. We are all lovable already. What we have to learn to do is LOVE OURSELVES. When we can love ourselves we will feel comfortable enough with ourselves that the loneliness and neediness for others fades.

it's a case of really feeling comfortable with ourselves, no longer needing to sit there itemising our lovable bits. It's a step further. Actually FEELING we have nothing to apologise for, not just claiming it. It's not easy to explain. When you accept that you do NOT have to work at making yourself a more lovable person, because you already are, you're pretty much there. It's a case of really KNOWING, really BELIEVING that there was no valid reason for your parents to reject you - of feeling angry, not because they were contemptuous and dismissive of your efforts - but because they treated you, an innocent child, who should not have had to do ANYTHING to earn love, with contempt.

Stop worrying about choosing the wrong people. Your recent bad experience is probably still very raw. Rather, you should realise THEY also have to be worthy of YOU. Once you have reached that stage of loving yourself (which should be major objective in any counselling you seek), you will cease to need friends so much that you trust them too early.

For now a motto of 'be friendly and co-operative, but do not seek friends' may be wise. Encourage social contacts, but keep them in a neutral setting. Groups, if possible, rather than one on one. Let relationships develop slowly, just one step at a time (romance is far more - um - romantic, and exciting that way)

Incidentally, that reminds me of one of the things I wanted to write about friendship, but forgot.

Remember that it is often easier to give than to receive. Learn to receive gracefully, with a smile and word of appreciation. That has a dual benefit - it allows the other person to feel good (rather than indebted), and also allows you to assess how much 'mutual' giving and taking is happening between you and other people, this being the basis of trust.

As with Peck's books, I find tremendous comfort and reassurance in your messages. Again, I appreciate your taking the time to share your wisdom. In the last month I'm fortunate to have met a lovely group of people with whom I'm learning to be myself and rebuild my sense of trust albeit sloooowly. Easy does it.